RIP - You helped me on this question and finished on August 23

RIP - You helped me on this question and finished on August 23 with positive feedback. This is about my 1996 Saab CSE turbo that I bought for $500 and am working on the engine, trying to do all myself for the challenge and to save $. I have new rings, bearings, head gasket, honed the cylinders, thermostat, checked timing chain.

I still have remaining the problem that we discussed: the journal on the crankshaft for the #3 piston still has additional previously melted bearing material on it that makes the journal too big on about a third of it. i know you recommended an engine out journal grinding, and realize that is the right approach.

But, my question: (I've got to give it one last try.) Is there any way I can remove just the extra melted bearing material and not the journal, since the bearing is made of softer material? I put a Mapp gas torch to one of the old bearings on the garage floor, and it softened, but didn't melt.

Also, I have an electric drill hooked up as a belt sander with a 2 inch drum on the end and belts of different grit wet sandpaper that can go around the journal, with the sanding surface on the inside of the belt. So I can use this 'machine', as needed.

Can sanding, melting or some chemical approach take off the previously melted bearing?

Optional Information:
1996 Saab 9000 CSE B234 LT

Already Tried:
Reference August 23 Justanswer session with RIP

Customer (name blocked for privacy)

So is the actual bearing material on the crankshaft itself?

Have you already tried to "Mapp" gas it?

-Rip

Reply to RIP's Post: Yes, the bearing material is on the journal. There were thick layers of the old bearing that I could and did remove from the journal, and I could see where the layers were, as it was clear where they ended, like the line one sees at the end of a roll of tape. What's remaining as extra material is thin, and I can't visually tell where it is, but my micrometer shows the diameter too big by a few tenths of a millimeter. I am assuming that the journal itself would not melt.

I briefly tried the Mapp torch on the journal, but didn't want to do it very long in case that would take the temper out of the journal. Nothing happened.

Have you already put the engine together and run it? If so was there a 'knocking' noise?

Reply to RIP's Post: No, I didn't put it together, although everything is clean and ready. I tried connecting the rod to #3 from under the car, and tightening the cap, both with a new bearing and with an old one from a different cylinder. I couldn't move the rod, it was so tight, so I stopped there.

What are the measurments of the other journals?

-Rip

Reply to RIP's Post: I'm not at the car now, but I recall that the other journals are pretty consistent at 52 mm.
John

John,

If it's the Rod journal, try disconnecting the Rod, push the piston up, so that you'll have clearance to work with. I would use fine grit emry tape/cloth. It flexable, and with some oil on it, you can do a wet sand. Wrap the tape around the journal, use WD-40 or cutting oil, for lubrication, and "see-saw" the tape around the journal. Keep mic'n the journal every 30 seconds or so, to be sure were not going under. If the bearing material is soft it bring it down, fairly quickly. I would try 600 grit, if it's too fine go for the 400. After we'll need to come up with a technique to polish the crank journal, so that the finish is 100% smooth. This is where the drill with a wool buffer may come in handy. Let me know the outcome.

-Rip

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Reply to RIP's Post: RIP - I haven't forgotten you or my Saab, but I must not have the JustAnswer procedures right, since my delay generates emails to me about it. I haven't responded to your last message since I have to wait until tomorrow to work on it. I'll be in touch.
John

John,

Sorry about the e-mails, they are self generated; primarily pertaining to customers who have forgotten they used the serivce. Take your time, I know it's not a task that can be done quickly. I have customers who respond month(s) later, so take the time you need, i'll be here when you need it. Thanks,

-Rip

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Reply to RIP's Post: RIP - The question I accepted today was an old one when I was looking at a Saab that I didn't buy. My question about the transmission not moving my '97 cvt is very much alive. This one, about my '96 9000 CSE and the one bad journal on the crank, is a problem because I'm not satisfied with the work I've done on it, and will make this my primary car if it comes out okay. Please don't laugh. but is there any way to remove the crank without taking the block out? I have plenty of jacks and thought, in desperation, that it might be possible to separate the block from the tranny, keep jacks under both, shift the block to the right several inches, and ease the left side of the block down far enough to remove the crankshaft. I could raise the tranny, as well. Is this crazy, or might be a way to solve the journal problem in a higher quality way?

There's never a bad question when it comes to automotive repair. When attampting to go around the correct format of repair, you may find a new, quicker method to completing the task, or at the worse the job may take longer and you will have learned a valuable lesson. Thanks, for the accept on that older question, but I think you may have already accepted it once?? Remember you can keep these open as long as you like, I've been having trouble getting back to my customers on a timely basis these last couple of days. Now as for the crank, did you try sanding it, with emry cloth/tape? I honestly belive you'll be much happier removing the engine to work on the crankshaft, only because it is often hard to get it back together and properly when the crankshaft is above your head. And the engine/trans isn't that bad to remove if you have an engine hoist. Also, if you can remove the transmission first completley, then I beleive you have a chance of removing the crankshaft, while the block is still in the vehicle. With the trans out, you can unbolt the flywheel which will hold it in. Let me know which route you decide to take, and i'll guide you. Thanks,

-Rip

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Reply to RIP's Post: RIP - First of all, please don't be concerned about your response time. I appreciate whatever you can do. About the emery cloth, I've had to do it a lot because of all the bearing melted onto the journal. I'm at a point at which I have some shine on the journal, and the journal is very close to being round now. But there are still uneven streaks around parts of the journal. Also, there is still some melted bearing in the little channels on each side of the journal surface. Even if I got it all done right, wouldn't it have to be at a journal diameter that matches the size of bearings available? I would not like putting the engine back together and having to address the journal problem again after a few hundred miles.
I don't have a hoist, but I can look into it. I had read that to remove the engine I would first have to remove the radiator, and other parts. Perhaps removing the trans is easier?

Removing the trans is definitly easier, but to remove it for a in-vehicle crankshaft R&R, may be a little harder than just pulling the engine and turning it upsidedown on a bench or engine stand and then removing the crank. Also, have you looked into how much a used engine is? Or a used crankshaft? Your right about the bearings matching the crank, if you were to put it back together without having the crank machined, there is a 70% chance the engine/crankshaft will fail again shortly, if not immediatly. I'll gather the R&R procedures for both the engine and trans and post them for you, but it may not be until Monday morning. You can view them, and we can discuss our options. When I used to pull engine's outside of a fully equipped shop environment I was able to rent a engine hoist for really cheap, like $25 a day, and I would only use it for about 2 hours and return it until I was ready to put the engine back in. It does sound like alot of work to pull the engine, and it can be, but I do guarantee you will be more satisfied doing it that way; however, if we can get the job done with it in the vehicle, that would be great. I'll also look up the labor times and see the differences. Be back with you soon.

-Rip

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Reply to RIP's Post: RIP - I'll look for a crankshaft, either by itself, in a used engine purchase, or through buying a cheap car with a timing chain disaster (hopefully messing up just the top end), or one with a failed transmission. I'll see how much it will cost to have the crank machined. And I'll study the procedures you post. In a decision on how to proceed, I'll also consider that I have to get on with it and finish the project. A decision should be possible by Tuesday, with your help.
John

Alright i've done some reasearch on the labor times associated with the engine and transmission removal to gain access to the rear of the crankshaft. The engine can only be removed with the transmission still attatched and the labor time is estimated to be 7.0 hours. The transmisison can be removed seperatly while the engine remains in the vehicle and calls for slightly more labor due to the difficulty, at 8.2 hours. You'll also have to take in consideration the additional labor to remove the crankshaft once the trans is removed. And if the engine is pulled there is additional labor to seperatate the transmission from the engine and then remove the crankshaft. My view is that with the additional difficulty of removing the transmisison is the vehicle, it would most likely be best to do the engine removal, and you will have more access to working with the crank. Let me know what you decide and I can forward removal instructions as well. Thanks,

-Rip

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Reply to RIP's Post: RIP - Thanks for doing the research. Right now, I'm not favoring such a big project, especially with rewarding work going on with the '97 cvt.

I've got two '96 9000's: the CS that I drive now, with 118K, and that has been well maintained; and the CSE with 175K, a bad crank caused by poor maintenance, but perfect cosmetically, with all the CSE extras. What makes most sense to me is to switch engine/trans from one to the other, drive the CSE and sell the CS. In mid- switch, I can separate the trans from the engine and have the crankshaft machined. All of that is even more work. I met a mechanic recently who works on his own, and will see if I can have him do some of this. Until then, I'm going put a hold on this one.
John

John,

Good call, I agree... a engine swap between the two might be the best route. Finishing up the '97 should take priority, but definitly put one of them on hold so you don't overwhelm yourself with tiedious, laborous work. Staying focused on getting one drivable first is best. Let me know when I can be of more assistance on this one, when your ready.

-Rip

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Reply to RIP's Post: RIP - I'm going to close this one out with an 'Accept', and we can refer to it later when we need to. Thanks,
John

No problem, thanks for the accept plus the bonus, it was generous.

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Reply to RIP's Post: RIP - hope you hadn't forgotten me, as I haven't forgotten you, and I've taken on an engine swap project on a '99 9-3. I got a hoist/balancer and took the bad engine out and put the replacement one in. Made a few mistakes and took forever, but pretty good for a first try. The starter doesn't crank, though. I hear a click when I turn the key, but that's it. Battery is strong, and 12+ volts is on the starter. I put an OBDII on it, and it got a 'pass'. All dashboard indicator lights are okay. I have another starter, but switching them doesn't help. Separately putting 12V on the other terminal on the starter doesn't make it go. Any thoughts?
John

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RIP - Thanks for the 9-5 low oil pressure experience. Amazing that the mileage was so low. And thanks for the tip on reading the odometer without a key. That will help me in the future.
My engine turns by hand wrenching. I don't know how hard or easy it should be. But before installing the engine, I checked and the bearings are fine and I could move each piston by hand. I also looked in the oil pan, and saw something I'd never seen before: The bottom of the pan! No sludge at 130K miles. I got the engine off a 'pick-parts' lot from a car that was in a minor accident. So I assume that the engine must have started the last time it ran. There is no sound from the starter that I can detect from the driver's seat. I now recall that I had written you before about the engine, but couldn't find the thread. I thought it was a Trionic 7, but find that it is Trionic 5.

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RIP - I'm trying to bench test the starter on the engine I removed, since it was working when I took it out. I hooked the negative battery terminal to the engine ground. I hooked the big terminal on the coil and the big terminal on the starter to +12v. I put a jumper wire between the smaller terminal on the solenoid and the smaller terminal on the starter. That must be wrong because nothing happened.
J

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RIP - I got the starters to work. in the test. The one that's in the car, all I had to do was to put one wire, the 12v positive from the battery, on the smaller terminal on the starter. When I did this, the starter turned freely without turning the engine. So I know from this that the ground is fine, as is the power supply to the main terminal of the starter. I hope I mentioned before that the lights dim when I try to start the car.
J

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When I tested the one on the bad engine, I had the solenoid activated and the engine turned. For the starter that's in the car, I just was able to reach back there and put the hot lead to the small starter terminal, and was able to confirm that the starter works. I didn't try anything else, and have no reason to suspect the solenoid, since when I try starting with the key, the starter doesn't turn at all, and the headlights dim.

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Yellow to solenoid small terminal. Automatic transmission, showing on the dashboard as being in 'park'. The gear selector on the console is in 'park' also, but I had trouble getting the shift cable reattached to the top of the transmission. Could this be the problem? I did rotate the selector control on top of the transmission until it read 'park' on the dash. No assistant available now.

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I'll try it in neutral when I get home in a few hours.

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Just tested in neutral. Same problem.

Alright, from this point we need to verify if any voltage is present on the yellow wire when cranking....even if it's less than 12 volts. Somewhere we're losing the signal. The signal starts at the ignition switch, goes thorugh the neutral safety switch, through the starter relay and onto the starter...and if I recall correctly if you have an anti-theft system the signal is inturrupted through the computer. If you don't have an assistant available, maybe you can rig the test lamp up using bulk wire, so that you can see it while you crank the engine yourself. If you have a voltmeter...it would be even better. If we find low voltage at the connector I'll know wether to start checking at the starter relay, if no voltage at all...we'll have to check all the avenues. I'm away from the information on this model...it may have the anti-theft which disables the starter from using the wrong ignition key, so if you have another key try it as well. If you have access to a voltmeter, we can check the terminals at the starter relay as well. Let me know what you think.

~Rip

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RIP-I think now that your original question about whether the engine can't turn, is the right one. What if I didn't put the engine & transmission back together right? Might they be stuck? I think there is voltage to the starter, & it just can't turn.
What to do?
J
8

Edited by Customer (name blocked for privacy) on May 15 2007 at 6:15 PM

RIP: Saab crank journal - Remove old melted bearing material

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