Ask Your Car Question. Car Experts Answer You ASAP.

(Not a Car Question?)

Crossed Wires
Sent to Car Experts December 30 05:05 PM

Hey There! After thirty years of driving and repairing my own cars... I goofed! The jump-start routine that I always follow got confused in an emergency storm situation. The car died after coming to idle at the intersection and the speedometer an other gauges are going "haywire". I hope it's just the diode inside of the alternator. How can I tell? It's a 1993 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera S. Customer (name blocked for privacy), Gold Beach, Oregon

Optional Information:
1993 Oldsmobile Ciera S 3.3 Liter

Already Tried:
Car starts, but after several hours of driving, suddenly stops battery acts "dead"

Customer (name blocked for privacy)
Answer
December 30 5:10 PM (5 minutes and 8 seconds later)
         
REPLIEDCheck Mark

Greetings!

If you suspect a chorted diode allowing the alternator to put out AC voltage that might be interfering with the vehicle electronics, theere are a couple of ways to check for this.

(1) use an oscilloscope to scope the alternator output, to look for AC voltage instead of rectified 3-phase DC

(2) Remove the drive belt, to see if everything returns to normal with the alternator not spinning

(3) Disconnect the electrical wiring from the alternator and start the car, to see if everything returns to normal.

We've all done this at least once!

I hope this is helpful; if so, an accept would be most appreciated! thanks!

Reply
December 30 10:01 PM (4 hours and 50 minutes and 31 seconds later)
         
Reply to Steve7654's Post: Yeah great... if I could afford an oscilloscope, I wouldn't need to ask the "eight-dollar question". I'm sure you're on the right track... but if advice were pennies... I'd be a rich man! Goodbye.

Edited by Customer (name blocked for privacy) on December 30 2005 at 10:02 PM
Answer
December 31 12:04 AM (2 hours and 3 minutes and 27 seconds later)
         
REPLIEDCheck Mark

Jef;

I'm not sure you read my answer to your question! I provided you with two methods of testing for the fault you inquired about which do not require ANY test equipment at all!

A scope test is the way a repair shop would check the alternator, I thought you would want to know how it is done. The other 2 methods I described for you are ways YOU can check for the failure, with NO scope...

If this is not a satisfactory answer to your question, what other information can I provide to improve the answer for you? Just trying to be helpful...



Edited by Steve7654 on December 31 2005 at 12:06 AM
Reply
December 31 12:48 AM (43 minutes and 43 seconds later)
         
Reply to Steve7654's Post:

You're doing a yeoman's job there Steve-o, but I was hoping for a little less than the obvious. Maybe somebody has had the same sort of circumstances and 'pop' there goes the lightbulb!

I guessed the alternator, the first time the car died. The headlights dimmed with acceleration. Just like my old '49 Chevy! The "idiot light" on the dash confirmed that my voltage was not being returned.

I would have pulled the alternator right away. The GM parts place was closed when I got home. The regulator would have been the first thing to change. I have played "guess where the bug is" on electrical systems, enough to know that once I opened it up... might as well swap for a new regulator. Plus, my voltmeter might have answered some questions too.

I hope I don't sound like too much of a wise#$%, but I've been driving since I was 13 years old ('cause dad 'said so') and I only goofed this one time... must be "old-timer's disease".

Anyway, for what it's worth, here's the 'moronic device' that I use for remembering the jump-start sequence:

"Dead Plus' to the 'Live One' - 'Minus' to the dead car's frame."

I think I made that up because I'm kinda dyslexic... but I guess even that, along with 'YELLOW' jumper cables didn't help me.

Thanks again.



Edited by Customer (name blocked for privacy) on December 31 2005 at 12:51 AM



([~spAce~])
Answer
December 31 9:01 AM (8 hours and 12 minutes and 30 seconds later)
         
ACCEPTEDCheck Mark

Apologies if my answer isn't what you are looking for; your one original question was "how can I tell if it is the alternator?" and I gave you 3 methods of testing to tell if it was the alternator, 2 of which required NO test equipment at all; i thought it was a quite simple, elegant answer to the exact question you posted.

RE: jump starting: the most critical step on vehicles with electronic components is to verify that the ignition switch is "off" in both vehicles before connecting anything. If the ignition switch is in the ON position, transient voltage spikes can and do damage electronic components. I'm not talking alternator diodes here; most modern vehicles have multiple (as many as 40 on some models) electronic control modules in everything from engine control systems to interior illumination to doors. Diagnosis of many of these requires a manufacturer specific scan tool, which you in all probability do not have available to you (they are far more expensive than scopes). I am not at all trying to deride you abilities; I chose your question to answer from the list on my screen specifically because you sounded like an intelligent person who likely knows something about cars and how they operate; that is the kind of customer that is pleasant to deal with and usually pays for your time. Unfortunately, to perform more in depth electronic testing to identify the exact damage in your vehicle will likely require specialized equipment which you do not have available (such as a scan tool and logic probe); that is the unfortunate reality of the situation. An alternator (your original question) is easy to eliminate as a cause for the symptoms you are experiencing, and I outlined how to do that. Other components simply cannot be diagnosied without test equipment and the related factory dioagnostic procedure for the system involved. For example, are you aware that on most new vehicle models (not your particular model year) the alternator field is controlled by the powertrain control module; the PCM monitors battery temperature through a battery temp sensor, and adjustes charging voltage by modulating the alternator field circuit in response? yep; no more voltage regulators, now a regulator failure means a new powertrain controller which must be programmed with a factory scan tool before it will be operational. There are more parts in the charging system to fail; components many people don't even know exist unless they attend regular technical training classes to keep abreast of the new technology. Again; I am not deriding your abilities at all; but diagnosis of electrical problems caused by an incorrect jump starting procedure isn't always as quick and easy as it was on 1970's models.

As far as your question, I answered the one you posted, but you seem dissatisfied; I don't have any magic bullet to tell you what is damaged in your vehicle besides the "obvious"; identifying such electronic damage does unfortunately require electrical testing which is not possible unless you are present with the vehicle.

You mention playing "guess where the bug is" on electrical systems; such an approach is not used by professionals. There is NO guesswork in electrical diagnosis; if you follow a logical test sequence, there is never any reason to install parts on a guess. Such guesswork can be very expensive if wrong (guess who pays for a $1500 import electronic control module if it doesn't fix the car and is non-returnable? Right- the tech who installed it !). Such liability for your diagnosis quickly breeds the replace-parts-and-see-if-it-helps approach right out of you.

Good luck, if I can be of assistance, don't hesitate to ask...



Edited by Steve7654 on December 31 2005 at 9:02 AM
Reply
December 31 9:09 PM (12 hours and 8 minutes and 6 seconds later)
         

That just about sums it up. I'm sure that was alot easier for you... and less skin off your knuckles than if I had brought it in to the shop. Thanks. The information you supplied me with was credible and concise. I will make sure I keep you on my "list" for any future automotive repair questions.

I have enough information to confirm that I just need to have it checked by a pro - before I go "yank any wires" out of my rig. Thank you again.

------------------------------------------------------------------

This is just a post script to let you know how things went:

I took my Olds to the shop, they scoped it. Bad alternator.

A few years back, I had an accident that left me... less than "sharp"... so when things happen... automotive or not... I don't deal with them like I normally would... I'm telling you this because... If you had asked me, "is your car doing anything different, than before." I would have said, "yeah, there's this high-pitched 'whining' sound - that goes with the acceleration of the motor." (a dry or seized bearing, probably)

I had two different service stations have a look. They even got the "stethiscope" out and tried to listen for the location. No good.

The whole time, I knew or, at least, used to know, what it was. When the car died the first time... my instinct, was to pull the alternator and have it checked out. That was the "old me".

Instead, I let the mechanics have at it. After the shop swapped my alternator for a rebuilt (something I could have done myself)... the "whining sound" was gone. uh-huh.

Just thought I'd throw that in there for future reference. Thanks again for your "Just Answer".

Edited by Customer (name blocked for privacy) on January 10 2006 at 8:52 PM



([~spAce~])
Reply
January 10 8:53 PM (9 days and 23 hours later)
         
Relist:
Post Script
Answer
January 11 12:17 PM (15 hours and 24 minutes and 1 second later)
         
REPLIEDCheck Mark

Hello!

Glad you found the source of the problem; and thanks for the accept!

These CS series alternators are known for bearing failures; usually they last 2 to 3 years in normal use, so it is possible you may face a similiar situation in the future if you keep the car long enough.

Thanks again, and good luck!

Reply
January 12 5:59 AM (17 hours and 41 minutes and 49 seconds later)
         
Reply to Steve7654's Post: Just trying to leave a message to help the guy who helped me... maybe I should get paid for that. ha ha. Thanks again for your "Just Answer"


([~spAce~])
Think you can answer this question?
Login or Become an Expert

 

DISCLAIMER: You acknowledge that any information you may obtain from individuals you contact through use of the Just Answer service comes from those individuals, not from Just Answer!, and that Just Answer is not in any way responsible for any of the information these third parties may supply. The site and services are provided "as is" with no warranty and no representations are made regarding the qualification of an Expert. Responses and comments on Just Answer! are for general information and are not intended to substitute for informed professional advice (such as medical, legal, investment or accounting) and do not establish a professional-client relationship. Just Answer! is not intended or designed to address EMERGENCY QUESTIONS which should be directed immediately by telephone or in-person to qualified professionals. Please carefully read the Terms of Service.

Just Answer! > Car Repair